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March 30, 2005
Penalties stand
Even though the penalties for the #48 and #5 teams were adjusted for the crew chiefs, the #29 team wasn't as lucky. They had their appeal and the penalties were said to be appropriate, according to the commission.
I just don't get it, playing favorites again? The #48 and #5 teams get their crew chiefs suspensions changed to probation for violations found right after the race and the #29 team crew chief suspension gets deemed appropriate for a violation during qualifying, it had nothing to do with the race or performance during the race.
March 30, 2005 in NASCAR | Permalink
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and BTW johnson has been cheating alot for the past 2 years and is gonna till hell freezes over and pigs fly.
Posted by: allen | Apr 8, 2005 2:12:20 AM
how the hell can yall say johnson isnt cheating???he was running 2 MPH faster than everyone else???and beat a car that was intentionally cheating.hes using traction control and whatever else theyre cheating with.jimmie isnt that great of a driver,hes like a steve park talent kinda guy,but drives with hendrick so gets favored and has the best cars aand cheats and gets away with it.he shoulda had the win taken away and finished 20th...and kevin shoulda had to start last,berrier suspended for 1 race and docked 25 owner points.why???because johnson cheated to win and kevin cheated to qualify...yall see the diffrence between qualifying and racing???BIG FRICKEN DIFFRENCE!!!and everyone is so scared or something to talk about how jimmie wrecks people for the hell of like jeff bourton at bristol...johnson and all of HMS needs to die in another plane crash and until then ill give yall the one gun salute...***k you HMS
Posted by: allen | Apr 8, 2005 2:09:51 AM
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a9b69ce3dcc.htm
Posted by: dave | Apr 7, 2005 12:29:55 AM
Am I right or am I wrong. Didn't Rick Hendrick get a pardon from Clinton for past crimes..so getting Nascar to bend over or bend the rules in thier favor..should be a snap
Posted by: dave | Apr 7, 2005 12:23:37 AM
I would think if nascar could have provided any hard evidence that the 48 and 5's issues were premeditated, the commission would not have ruled the way they did.
Posted by: EZRIDER714 | Apr 4, 2005 12:40:30 PM
None of this would be a problem if Nascar would go over each car with a fine-toothed comb before the race. I don't know how feasible that is, but it would certainly be more than worth it if it meant that Nascar could catch rules violations BEFORE competition. Think about it...if someone is found to have cheated in qualifying, then they're out, period. But then all the teams know that they, and everyone else, are legal at the start of the race. Because everything moves so quickly during the race, it seems like it would be much harder to add or remove anything major from the car during a pit stop. We wouldn't be stuck with ludicrous excuses like the Hendrick's (this violation actually hurt me...yeah, THAT must be why I suddenly shot to the front!) or Nascar's hamhanded point fines after the fact. I know resourceful teams would still find ways around the rules, but it seems like there would be a lot less grey area.
Posted by: Sara | Apr 3, 2005 7:07:19 PM
Personally, I think the #29 team got off light. IMO, any team which is caught outright, blatantly, intentionally cheating (which is exactly what happened) at any time during a race weekend should be told to pack up and go home, zero points for the weekend. If there's no proof the driver knew about the cheat, then he should be allowed to race IF he can find an eligible team willing to let him drive. Otherwise, oh well . . . he should be pissed at his team.
The #29 team got off light with a dinky (yes, DINKY) 25 point penalty (which will be completely erased for the "Chase for the Drama") and a CC suspension. While I do believe the #48 & #5 teams should have had their penalties upheld, I don't believe there was any favoritism going on here. It's apples & oranges . . . blatant & intentional cheat vs. possible parts failure.
Posted by: Phil | Apr 2, 2005 7:29:21 PM
GOD I LOVE RACIN - LOVE HARVICK - MISS ERNIE
DON'T CARE ABOUT JR. OR J. GORDON AND JUST PLAIN HATE DW - LET'S GO RACIN BOY'S
Posted by: frank | Apr 2, 2005 6:02:17 PM
Bill,
You throw out the term biased when I speak against Hendrick Motor Sports and people throw out the term biased when I speak in favor or Junior and Harvick. What about the Hendrick fans that speak out in favor of their driver or against other drivers?
We are fans of our favorite drivers and who are you to say that we can't speak our opinions without being attacked by you.
Posted by: Jon | Apr 2, 2005 1:03:29 PM
Don,
That is just Jeff Hammons opinion that it was part failure and he is speaking as a former crew chief. It is my opinion that it was intentional.
Tom,
You obvious have your opinion and no proof that I am wrong. Unless you in the head of Knaus and Gustafson you can't know that it wasn't intentional.
Posted by: Jon | Apr 2, 2005 12:08:56 PM
Comment By Jeff Hammond
It's OK to find that somebody has broken a rule or had an infraction because of a part failure, but don't let cheating and a part failure get mixed up in the confusion here. If they did it intentionally — and only if — we can bring the word "cheating" or the phrase "trying to take advantage of the competition" into play. And it doesn't mean that because the part failed, you should not be fined or penalized. If a guy doesn't do it intentionally, he's a victim of a part malfunction, not the creator of the part malfunction.
Posted by: Don | Apr 2, 2005 11:41:07 AM
That's what makes this BLOG so interesting, everyone has a different view, and although I don't agree with Kathy's views, I enjoy reading everyone view
Posted by: Don | Apr 2, 2005 11:33:30 AM
Bill said: As far as kathy goes, you say this is just a Blog? That is no excuse since her "Blog" has a direct link on the home page of Thatsracin's website. THAT makes all the difference in the world.
But Bill, you're forgetting one thing here. That's Racin chose me (and Jimmy) to write our blogs over here. They read our blogs we had before, over a period of time before choosing us, they wanted a fans point of view and opinion to add to their journalistic point of views.
Posted by: Kathy | Apr 2, 2005 11:19:28 AM
Tom,
So if one swears to express joy on national television, it's OK?
If it's so "OK" then why would you agree to a fine?
If it's so "OK" then why penalize them at all?
Why not script the swearing for them? Shoot, we could get Andrew Dice Clay to write scripts, would that be enough swearing for you?
Posted by: Bill | Apr 2, 2005 10:50:46 AM
Jon,
Ahhhh here we go again. My guess is that if I said the sky was blue you'd swear it was green. But, no matter.
You have a clear bias against Hendrick Motor Sports so your clouded opinions will never change. I see you never addressed my statement that if this were DEI that had the penaties reduced there would be no discussion of this. Wonder why?
Don't bother, I know the answer. Whether or not the Hendrick teams cheated or even if they lied about it is not the issue, the issue is that the nature of their violation(and there clearly was one) could not lead anyone(including NASCAR)to say 100% for sure that it was a flagrant attempt to cheat therefore they could not justify upholding a penalty reserved for those teams who do show a deliberate disregard for the rules as Harvick's team did. THAT is the differece here, you seem to miss that point. Your hatred of Hendrick Motorsports blinds you from this simple obvious fact. To be quite honest, your extreme bias precludes your opinion from having any value in the discussion.
As far as kathy goes, you say this is just a Blog? That is no excuse since her "Blog" has a direct link on the home page of Thatsracin's website. THAT makes all the difference in the world. If you can't see that then it's not my problem, it's yours.
It will interesting to see if DEI gets into the same situation with NASCAR reducing a penalty this year if your opinion remains the same or if you even voice one at that time.
Posted by: Bill | Apr 2, 2005 10:40:56 AM
Jon,
No, you are wrong. I can tell you it was not intentional. I can tell you it did not impact the race. There I just did; prove me wrong. (Saying HMS sucks is not proof mind you).
What the #29 did was intentinal. Want me to prove it? No problem.
The #48 and #5 should be punished. Maybe the original suspsensions should have been upheld. One thing that there is absolutly no doubt about: the #29 got off incredibly easy in comparison when you look at what they both did. I could not beleive he got away without missing a race. It was sheer stupidity to do something that is so obvious if you get caught... for something that only works in qualifying for god sakes.
...and to those talking about the #8 swearing infraction last year. A driver who says something non-dergogative just after winning a race in the heat of the moment expressing joy... It should have been a money only fine. It was pure crap.
Posted by: tom | Apr 2, 2005 8:59:03 AM
I see that Richard Chilfress is now calling for the drivers to not be penalized. Pardon me but the team is not complete without a driver. If a penalty is deserved then all parts of the team need to take a hit. If a driver benefits from an illegal action of a team member then he needs to be penalized also. Don't tell me the drivers do not know what is going on. Either they are a part of the team or they are just a dressed up monkey behind the wheel. I do not see any monkeys at the races I go to. Richard Childress needs to address the problems in his shop instead of blaming the sport.
Posted by: Scott | Apr 2, 2005 8:50:53 AM
Melli,
You are completely right about what Berrier did was wrong and the penalties were fair except for the four race suspension. Knaus and Gustufson cheated during the race and what they did impacted the race itself and their suspensions should have stuck also. What Berrier did had absolutely zero impact on the race.
You can't tell me they didn't do it on purpose and just because they lied and claimed it wasn't intentional was joke.
Posted by: Jon | Apr 2, 2005 8:02:40 AM
Barrier was wrong, admitted he was wrong and got what he deserved. You can not alter in anyway a race set up, which includes the fuel cell, you do you don't pass go and you do pay 25K in fines and get suspended. :)
Melli
Posted by: Melli | Apr 2, 2005 12:20:02 AM
Bill,
Why do you keep saying Kathy is unprofessional? Do you understand that this is a blog and Kathy is not a journalist. She was just invited to share her opinions in this blog by Thatsracin.com.
Just because she doesn't like Jimmy Johnson or Gordon that doesn't make her unprofessional.
Posted by: Jon | Apr 1, 2005 8:10:46 PM
Bill,
I guess your nose isn't plain on your face since cheating is cheating whether they lied to NASCAR and claimed they didn't do it on purpose. The fact is they cheated whether NASCAR bought their lies or not.
Posted by: Jon | Apr 1, 2005 7:31:49 PM
LOL!! You people make me laugh!!! If it were two DEI teams who had the penalties reduced, this topic would not exist and this discussion would not be happening.
The reason for the reduction of penaties is as clear as the nose on your face. Harvick's violation was a clear cut intentional attempt at flat out cheating. There is no two ways about it. The two Hendrick violations were not so clear cut. Am I saying that they were not trying to cheat? No, not at all, they may very well have been trying to cheat but the nature of the offense was not as 100% clear in the teams intent as was Harvick's. That is all it was about. They are not playing favorites. If they were, Jr's "cussing" penalty last year would have been overturned so fast your head would have spun.
The reduction of penalties was nothing more than NASCAR trying to correct a "knee-jerk" reaction on their part. We don't sentence people to death for a speeding ticket do we?
This hype is just a case of fans LOOKING for a reason to slam Hendrick. Nothing more.
Oh sure, there'll be those who claim I say this because I am a Gordon/Johnson fan and they may be right but beyond that I can see the situation for what it is. Those who's hatred of Gordon and Hendrick Motorsports is clouding their view can not.
Oh, and once again, Kathy, your obvious bias aginst Jeff Gordon is showing! NOT very professional.
Posted by: Bill | Apr 1, 2005 11:27:13 AM
Jon,
I didn't say they didn't cheat. I said they said rightly or wrongly that there was no intent to cheat. I think there is a big difference in the 2 situations in being able to prove intent. And yes, I do think that there should be a difference made between situations between a deliberate intent to cheat and a possible intent to cheat or a part failure.
I think you need to be careful what precedents you set. Remember Jr.'s punishment for cursing. Who would have thought back when NASCAR fined 2 Busch people that it would have such ramifications in the Cup chase. Of course in the long run it made no difference to Jr.'s final standing, but it could easily have been the difference between winning the title and losing it.
Posted by: Dana | Apr 1, 2005 11:10:53 AM
Look at this like a murder case.. Three cases, three bodies. The first case you have a body with a knife sticking out, caught on tape, and a signed confession. The other two bodies do not show clearly that they were murdered or killed by an accident. We have evidence hat the two suspects were involved but they deny any knowledge. Do all three deserve the punishment? I'm thinking there will be a manslaughter downgrade for the second two...
C'mon people, we don't know for sure if #48 and the #5 were in fact cheating... They Probably were but we dont KNOW. They are being punished for a RULES INFRACTION. The #29 is being punished for CHEATING. They all do it, the #29 got caught.
In the flavor of the previous post: The reason it takes "Balls" to do what the #29 did is BECAUSE the risk is so much greater if you get caught.
Posted by: Tom | Apr 1, 2005 8:19:04 AM
Hey,
double standard NASCAR.
SAME OLD SAME OLD.
is anybody suprised that another set of golden boys get's away with cheating. come on now no-body cheats in NASCAR. get real people they all do and they do it well. if you find away to get around a rule to give you more speed and a better edge they do it. NASCAR has been known for this for years. just because they are main stream now dos'nt mean the good old boys are gone. the good old boys are the one's building and setting up the cars. as for harvicks crew chief at least he had the balls to admit it and that's why the suspension was not over turned - kind of -like stick it in your face NASCAR. but the # 5 & # 48 crew chief we did'nt do anything wrong NO BALLS like their drivers. well at least jimmy J has no balls. So I say who cares Harvick is still good - alot of people will still love to hate him but one thing is for sure They have big balls at RCR from the owner to driver right down to the crew chief. hell harvicks wife has bigger balls then JJ # 48.
No wonder harvicks so HAPPY
Posted by: frank | Apr 1, 2005 5:31:05 AM
Dana,
Just because they say they didn't do anything intentional doesn't mean they didn't do it intentionally. This isn't the first time this has happened and as long as they think they got away with it by just saying they didn't do it intentionally it will continue to happen. Just to save you the trouble of asking I think they are lying plain and simple. Just because the suspension was overturned doesn't mean anything they cheated and were punished.
Posted by: Jon | Mar 31, 2005 11:29:53 PM
Aaron,
The Commission is setup by NASCAR and it is run by NASCAR. The 48 and 5 team cheated and broke the rules and they were punished by NASCAR and just because NASCAR/Commission decided to overturn suspension it doesn't change the fact that they cheated and broke the rules.
I never said only Hendrick teams get their suspensions overturned all I said was Hendrick teams will always receive favored treatment.
Posted by: Jon | Mar 31, 2005 11:14:03 PM
Yes, he started in the back, but he should have been made to use the same tank he qualified with(was this favoritism?) I thought the new rule was You race with you qualify with. If he had been made to race with that tank, he sure as hell wouldn't have ended up 6th. Hummm let's see 6th -25 points, sure beats last place any day. And all you Hendrick haters say the 5 and 48 were shown favoritism
Posted by: Don | Mar 31, 2005 6:50:45 PM
I think y'all need to look up the meaning of the word "independent" in the dictionary. Or is anyone here naive enough to believe that Nascar has no hold whatsoever on the "promoters, industry leaders, and dignitaries from other forms of professional motorsports" that sit on the commission? Yes, there's a difference between intentional cheating and...maybe-not-we-can't-PROVE-anything coincidence. There's also a diffeerence between having an unfair, illegal advantage during qualifying and having one during the race. Am I crazy, or did Harvick not start at the back thanks to Berrier's little stunt? That's what happens when you do something wrong in qualifying.
Posted by: Sara | Mar 31, 2005 5:17:10 PM
Kathy,
It is obvious from reading serveral of your comments that you don't like HMS and thus your judgment is biased. Barrier admitted he cheated, he meant to cheat and would do it again if he thought he could get away with it.
The other crew chiefs contended, rightly or wrongly, that they did not intend to cheat and the disreprency happened during the race.
Big difference: admitted cheating (no gray area at all) and possible cheating or possible result of adjustments to car during race (big gray area)
Posted by: Dana | Mar 31, 2005 3:44:50 PM
Kathy, refer to below.
Steps of the NASCAR appeals process: (from nascar.com)
- A written request for an appeal must be made to the National Stock Car Racing Commission within 10 calendar days of the notice of the penalty.
- The chairman of the National Stock Car Racing Commission will set a date and location.
- From the pool of 31 commission members, the chairman will be joined by a minimum of two to constitute a quorum. Commission members are selected based on their knowledge and experience. They include men and women from a variety of motorsports backgrounds, some active in the sport and some retired. They include promoters, industry leaders, and dignitaries from other forms of professional motorsports.
- Appeal would be heard; decision handed down.
- If the team is not satisfied with the decision, they could make a final appeal to the National Stock Car Racing Commissioner Charles D. Strang. All decisions by the commissioner are final.
Posted by: Aaron | Mar 31, 2005 1:59:25 PM
Oops - looks like this place doesn't take html tags.
Jayski thing is here:
http://www.jayski.com/pages/penalties.htm
Posted by: John Newsom | Mar 31, 2005 1:57:33 PM
Kathy: Jayski sheds a little light on the workings of the 31-member Commission here. Most likely, the Commission works like the courts -- in federal appeals court, for instance, the full court doesn't hear every case and sometimes kicks things to a panel of 3 (or more) judges. That's just a guess.
Everyone else: I think the conspiracy talk misses the point. All three drivers have lost 25 points - on that point the Commission agreed with NASCAR. Just ask Jamie McMurray how much 25 more points would have meant to him last year.
Posted by: John Newsom | Mar 31, 2005 1:56:34 PM
One question, why was it a panel of three different judges for the Childress appeal?
Posted by: Kathy | Mar 31, 2005 1:21:47 PM
What I wish alot of people would get through their thick skulls is that the National Stock Car Racing Commission is INDEPENDENT of NASCAR. NASCAR levied the suspensions to Berrier, Gustafson, and Knaus. It was the INDEPENDENT commission that, after hearing the appeals of the teams, decided to uphold or ammend the penalties handed down by NASCAR. As such NASCAR did not play favorites and all you conspiracy theorists need to a clue.
Posted by: Aaron | Mar 31, 2005 10:00:12 AM
Both cases were rightly decided. While the Nascar officials got messed up the Stock Car Commission drew the bright line where it needed to go -- between violations due to misjudgements/mechanical failures and proven, intentional cheating. (Though I think they should have doubled the fine and points penalty to further reinforce that distinction and to punish Childress for the sheer gall of making an appeal at all in a proven, intentional cheating case).
Regardless of what conspiracy theorists would like to believe there was no proof that the Hendrick teams' violations were due to deliberate action. Had the Nascar inspectors found any such proof -- parts deliberately rigged to fail perhaps -- they would deserve the same, severe penalty I suggested for the 29 team. And I say that despite the fact that I root for Kyle Busch (the only Hendrick driver I care for). But they didn't.
In contrast, the 29 team's violation met the highest standard or proven, intentional, PREMEDITATED cheating -- the manufacture of special, deceptive equipment. And that is the difference that matters, NOT the trivial difference of qualifying vs. race day.
As any parent attempting to keep order in the household knows, all violations must be punished lest rules be watered down to nothing. But there needs to be a tiered system of penalties with violations due to mechanical failures, misjudgements (such as misjuding how much a spring would settle), and in-race incidents treated on one level and violations due to deliberate, intentional cheating treated far more severly.
Both unauthorized parking in the handicapped space and mass murder are illegal but no one says to put the illegal parkers on death row with the murderers. Except, of course, the anti-Hendrick conspiracy theorists who insist that they were parked in the handicapped space to ensure a fast getaway from the murder scene.
Posted by: M. B. Voelker | Mar 31, 2005 9:26:23 AM
Jon -
So it is only the Hendrick teams that get by with doing whatever they want and can get suspensions overturned.
Well, how do you explain the #32 Braun Racing team getting their crew chiefs suspension overturned?
They aren't in anyway affiliated with Hendrick, but managed to get their's turned over.
So ANOTHER team besides Hendrick got something overturned, sounds to me like your argument towards HMS and no other team getting by with it doesn't hold water.
Posted by: truracinfan | Mar 31, 2005 9:15:05 AM
Jon -
Where has it been said that is the reason they finished 1 and 2? I missed that somewhere.
I DID see however that what was wrong with the 48 would have HURT it not helped it.
DELIBERATELY cheating and OPENLY ADMITTING IT AND THAT YOU WOULD DO IT AGAIN is different!
I haven't seen it said for sure that the 48 and 5 DELIBERATELY cheated.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE!! It isn't favortism it is the facts!!
Posted by: truracinfan | Mar 31, 2005 9:05:53 AM
AK and Don,
You both can continue to make up excuses for NASCAR playing favorites all you want it doesn't change the fact that the two Hendrick Teams cheated and the advantages they gained were the reasons they finished 1 and 2 in the race. All it shows is that if you work Hendrick Motor Sports NASCAR will believe you when you say it wasn't intentional, but you better not try it if you work for any other team.
Posted by: Jon | Mar 31, 2005 6:33:54 AM
The difference was Todd and Childress were man enough to admit they did something wrong. It was the suspension they were appealing. It was the Hendricks girls who cried and played innocent over the whole thing. But hey, this is all a moot point, NASCAR continues to back their media meat-and-potatoes and we aren't likely to see it stop.
Posted by: mayorjimmy | Mar 31, 2005 1:54:53 AM
Akhntr
Thanks for making some sense, I don't understand why these people just don't get it... OH yes I do, it's simple, they just don't like Hendricks teams, because they are good, and WIN, and do it without cheating.
Todd out and out cheated, and he ADMITTED it, what's not to get?
Posted by: Don | Mar 31, 2005 1:02:31 AM
Come on guys you can't compare the two. Berrier cheated plain and simple. Both Hendricks teams went through prerace inspection and had a NASCAR official in their pits the whole race. NASCAR had plenty of oppurtunity to call a spade a spade prior to the race fininsh. Clearly I am a Hendricks fan but this doesn't have anything to do with it. If the boys at Hendricks purposefuly cheated then slap them and slap them hard. Berrier had to purposefuly with prethought cheat. His suspension should stand.
Posted by: Akhntr | Mar 30, 2005 10:03:44 PM
why be suprised that the Hendricks organization got away with it again and again, at least Nascar is being consistent, everytime the Hendrick cars do something wrong, you can bet it is only a matter of time before Nascar plays forgive and forget! will it ever end, I doubt it!
come on, somebody up there in Nascar,,,,,Mr France..........see the light!
Posted by: Debby | Mar 30, 2005 9:13:42 PM
NASCAR showing their favoritism once again. Refusing to overturn the suspension of Todd Berrier like they did for the two Hendrick crew chiefs. I guess as long as you are a part of the Hendrick organization you can claim you didn't do it intentional and NASCAR will believe you. I guess I should be so surprised, it has happened on so many occassions in the past and I am sure it will continue. I am sure I will be attacked by the Hendrick lovers but that is ok you are entitled to your opinions.
Posted by: Jon | Mar 30, 2005 7:41:13 PM
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